Israel v Everyone - M.A.D or Peace in the Middle East?

I’d strongly disagree with this statement. Although it’s not a root cause, Israel is deeply undemocratic, on account of the apartheid. Only “Arab Israelis” get to vote out of any of the Palestinians. If every Palestinian and every Israeli got to vote, then the state they are voting in would no longer be called Israel because it could no longer be an apartheid ethnostate.

The two state solution is as fucking dead as 10% of Gazans are. All that’s left is one person, one vote, for everyone whose ancestors dwelt between the river and the sea.

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Interesting question. I’d choose Iran too. Maybe Palestine but I think that’d achieve less. From the surface and the media reporting we get, which may well be inaccurate

Israel democratically elected, seems strongly supported by the majority of Jewish citizens, with a reasonably vocal minority against current actions.

Iran undemocratic. Seems a very large proportion of the population against the regime but unable to really do anything due to the oppressive system. With a democratically elected/secular government would policy towards Israel or the US change?

Palestine - I seem to get mixed messages around how well Hamas is supported? Seems a large part support them as they see no alternative to a self determining future? And athe other half hate them for the consequences their actions have on everyday life but are powerless to do anything? Is there any good sources on what the population actually thinks? And the Palestinian authority seems to be seen as useless in the West bank?

As an aside, horrendous story about the Yazidi girl freed from Gaza 10 years after being kidnapped by IS.

All this rubbish reminds me how lucky to live here. Lebanese and Israel citizens sheltering under bridges. Israeli kids taking pictures with missiles either not realising or used to the fact such a missile could fall on their bedroom. It’s just a different reality.

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That’s a lot to do with how WB and Gaza are handled isn’t it? And given that Israel under Netanyahu (aka Israel) is totally devoted to white anything two-state, it is entirely fair to say that those people should be seen as Israeli citizens and so that democracy is undermined.
With the one person one vote you suggest, the most "fair "option, it is impossible to see Israel ever accepting that even if purely because having treated the Palestinians so poorly, they cannot but see an empowered Palestinian population as wanting immediate revenge or retribution.
I tend to agree two state (which I’d preferred) is dead and Israel are in too deep to come to a (relatively) peaceful solution. We really are relying on the US unfortunately. Same conversation in 15 years then?

Yeah we really are lucky. I was watching the channel 7 news the other night. The top stories were the wars in the Middle East, the local top stories were some guys house burnt down which is not great but luckily he survived and some guy had some expensive tree stolen out of his front yard by a dodgy tradie. It really is a different world

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Are we that far off? All we need is a cnt to mobilize Aboroginies and a cnt to retaliate and we’re in a very very similar predicament. It’s about singular fucked up individuals convincing the masses that their problems are due to another entity

There’s interesting things about Israel’s basic laws, affirmed by a bill passed by the Knesset in 2018, that it’s not a nation state for it’s citizens like every other country in the world, no matter how fucked up. It’s a nation state for ethnic Jews only.

Even if one thinks this is an appropriate way for Israel to be governed and that’s a partner for peace and holds out hope for a two state solution, until that actually happens, Israel is only a full democracy for its citizens, but it governs all Palestinians.

From 67 until today, we’ve had a kind of de-facto situation where Palestinians in the OPT effectively have the ability to control their local government but not what would equate to our state or federal levels. You might think of Oslo and the Palestinian Authority as like a state government, but they’ve never had federal authority over themselves; Israel controls all airspace, the militart can go where it please, and they control all borders, asides from Rafah (and Egypt does what Israel wants anyway).

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What my thinking has come to over the last few years is this: People want two things.

  1. Security
  2. Opportunity.

So, physical and financial security and the opportunity to that which fulfils you.

What we see in Alice Springs is what happens when very low security is combined with, more or less, zero opportunity. We’re quite happy to take resources from a low income family in the south west of Sydney and redirect them to Kings School.

This is something that we see repeated ad nauseam throughout history and is basically the end game of unrestricted capitalism.

Israel is quite happy to remove the security of the Palestinians and give them no opportunity because their religion says only they themselves matter and all other people are of no concern. (If anyone wants to come at me for religious reasons, fuck off. There are three Abrahamic religions, and all three are daft and we would be better off without them.)

The “my religion good, your religion bad” and “My people good, your people bad” is the basis of most conflict.

To address this current scenario, you have to address why Israel wants to destroy the Gaza Strip. What are their motivations. And it’s all because they’re Jews and the people of the Gaza Strip are Muslim.

Iran’s conflict with Iran is because they’re Shia and Iranians are Sunni.

Greece and Turkey, Christian and Muslim.

India and Pakistan, Hindu and Muslim.

The troubles, Protestant and Catholic.

The Cathar Genocide, renegade Christian sect and Catholics.

St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre Protestant and Catholics.

The CIA and South/Central America democraticaly elected governments, Protestants and Communists.

People just want to get along. They want security and opportunity. They’re not going to persecute you for your religion unless someone decides to influence them that way.

Israel considers Palestinians to be enemies because Israel chose to make them enemies.

I think your

Yeah this is a key point. You either don’t give them rights but give them their country they can be citizens of, or you make them proper citizens and have one country. Since the failure of Ehud Barak’s plan, they’ve not had the leadership for the former, and were never going to go with the latter. So they’ve made a grab for both, as in no state for the Palestinians, but don’t give citizenship for the subjugated people.

Do you think with hindsight that Arafat should have gone with that original two state plan? I find it hard to envisage any scenario in which things could have turned out worse than they have.

My short answer is no, because there never was one.

There was a slighty better version of Oslo available, but it’s a sham to call it a two state solution, because even the most left wing Israelis like Rabin have always refused to evacuate settlements, unless they are stategically unsound and militarily indefensible, like those within the Gaza strip.

I used to live in Bethlehem. In order to get to Ramallah, the capital, you basically had to drive almost the whole way to the bottom of the Jordan valley near Jericho and then back up again, taking about an hour and a shitload of fuel. That’s thanks to the major settlement blocks of “Jerusalem” like Maale Adumiim, not due to distance - 15km as the crow flies.

Of course, there are roads for the settlers to pretend they aren’t occupying a foreign country, so if you have Yellow licence plates you can make the trip in 20m.

The real kicker is that, to keep those roads to the settlements settlements “safe”, you have to have checkpoints for all Palestinian vehicles. So a bored 18 year old on their year of mandatory service can basically decide to stop all movement of goods between two cities. I’ve sat in that damn valley for hours on a hot day.

The same is true between Bethlehem and Hebron, Ramallah and Nablus, Nablus and Jenin, because that’s how the settlements were designed. It’s impossible for a functional economy that isn’t dependent on foreign aid and largesse from the occupier to function like that.

Plus there’s the right of return which was never on the table, but that is a whole another essay…

What led you to do that?

I was volunteering with farmers whose olive groves or fields were in the fringe areas close to the settlements. It wasn’t exactly human shield so much as there’s more freedom to access areas adjoining settlements for Aussies on a tourist visa than there is for the landowners.

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So Fatima Payman has come out with the following quote from 7:30 Report after being asked if October 7 was a terrorist attack:

What happened on the 7th of October, I’ve condemned and the atrocities… the loss of any human life is to be condemned. Any form of violence against civilians must be condemned, and we need to acknowledge that Palestinians and now the Lebanese community are hurting, but so are the Israeli communities. And this is about: how do we make sure that we are raising awareness, but at the same time not isolating one group and pitting one group against another?

It really is as simple as that

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Thou shall not kill.

Pfft. Trying to walk on both sides of the street.

Both sides are f@cked and should be condemned if they’re killing civilians. That’s stating a logical argument. Killing civilians and kids isn’t a polar argument, if you’re doing it, you’re f@cked

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You’d think so right? Not if you’re Dutton.

Israel again trying their best to get the world off side. Attacking a UN structure and injuring peace keepers. But it’s ok because they said they were going to. It’s the UNs fault for not moving.

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The occupier and the occupied do not bear equal moral responsibility for the occupation.

I say this as a socialist with a socialist comrade who was arrested by Hamas in 2011 for a pro-democracy Arab Spring protest. I’m no apologist for fundamentalism. But Hamas and the butchers of 10% of the population of Gaza are not equivalent.

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What they did on October 7th was morally reprehensible. By all means, attack invaders, even maybe attack settlers, but civilians that were near there for a party, that’s utterly fucking disgusting. They had nothing to do with the invasion or anything else. They were kids that wanted to party. The moment you target civilians, kids and anyone else, you’ve lost any moral high ground.

I can MAYBE accept a concept of collateral damage to the extent, but that was 100% not collateral. That was kill anyone cos it’s fun.

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